Lee Davy continues his Life Outside Poker series by sitting down and talking to the former PCA Main Event champion, Galen Hall, who has created a mobile dating app called Carbon Dating.
Galen Hall has close to four million in live tournament earnings, including his huge victory at the 2011 PCA Main Event, where he defeated a field of 1,560 players to take home a gargantuan haul of $2.3m.
Not only is Galen a great poker player, but he is also the master of finding the right balance in his life, with studying, traveling and business also very important to him.
His latest business venture is a mobile dating app called Carbon Dating and this is his story.
Why did you choose to get into the mobile dating business?
“I spent the last two years working on my MBA in Stanford Business School. When I graduated I didn’t really have an avenue of business that I was really passionate about. I have worked in start-ups before, so I was familiar with them. My biggest skill is looking at really big, and messy, collections of data that cannot be analyzed in a straightforward manner. Something that needs a microscopic understanding of what’s going on, and be able to break down the data in creative ways, and that’s something I am really good at.
“So I starting thinking about the different areas that I could use this skill. It’s not really that intellectually challenging; most of what you are doing is looking at a big data sets, running a bunch of regressions, A/B testing and doing optimizations. But dating is the opposite of that. It’s a big outlier.
“There was a blog called OK Trends, which I used to read a lot and it was really fascinating. I thought this was a place where the data was messy and I would have an edge, being able to write algorithms that were optimizing for matches and things like that. I threw my hat in the ring, did some research, thought about a way how I could build a product that the market was not currently offering, and off I went.”
With 1 in 10 Americans having used an online dating site, or app, the market is pretty busy. What challenges did you face when considering entering such a busy market?
“It’s actually not a great space to be in, although it’s not all that bad either. It’s a $2 billion industry, and one of the challenges is it’s dominated by a couple of major players. There is a lot of price competition that goes on, so if you try and enter and compete with a similar offer, it’s a really difficult space to be in. So I had to do something that was totally different and take a lot of risks in order for my product to even be viable.”
Is there still a stigma attached to people using online dating apps?
“That was definitely true when online dating started to get big about 10 years ago. People would be embarrassed to say they met online, but Tinder was the app that was able to finally bury that stigma. I am a bit biased, because I live in San Francisco, and everyone here thinks it’s normal to use apps like this. In the last few years the acceptance of dating apps has gone through the roof and it’s commonplace now.”
I imagine online dating sites are similar to online poker sites where liquidity is key?
“It’s much more akin to building a poker site. You can have the best software, and the best product, but all of that is of little importance in relation to your player pool, liquidity and network. In poker, it doesn’t matter how bad your site is, if you have a lot of bad players, you will attract more players. With the dating app, no matter how bad your software is, if you have a good pool of people, then people will flock to you.
“Hinge is a good example of that. Their software is pretty awful, and they have so many bugs, but they have an extremely high quality user base. For me, when dating online, that’s been my most successful one so far. “
How important is it for an online dating app to have a great pool of very attractive looking people, or is it more important to have a much wider demographic that covers all eventualities?
“I think the first component of what you said is extremely important for a new app that’s growing. And the second is important for a site that wants to be ubiquitous and really see a ton of growth.
“Most of the old sites are based on a database of people which you can search through and anybody could message anybody. If those sites had a huge preponderance of users who were not attractive to other users, they would have a big problem, because people had a tough time finding someone they liked.
“One of the things that’s nice about apps like mine, is we do a lot of the work for you. There is some really intense background algorithms, which cater to you – which is sort of my jam. So every day you log on and we have already pre-selected matches for you, and you just have to say: ‘yes or no’. It’s less important that really great users be a high percentage of your total users, and more important to have a raw number of really great numbers that is pretty high.”
You decided to go down the route of using video as opposed to photos talk about that?
“Yes, it’s all video based and we use short video clips. There is nowhere to upload Facebook, or Instagram pictures; everything has to be created on the app, which is obviously a huge barrier for acquiring users, but I am hoping once they are acquired, and have gone through the effort of finding people, and creating this content, that they are a lot less likely to leave in the future.
“The video is much better for showing who you are, and also people have photos that are outdated, and people just don’t have five year video clips of themselves.
“But going beyond pure physical attractiveness, video allows you two things. One is you can find really great people that you would normally miss. You may say, “Ok, this person is fine looking, but there are so many fish in the sea, I will keep on looking,” but with video you might say, “Wow! This person is hilarious, and great, and I want to spend some time with this person.”
“Secondly, often over looked but equally important, is you avoid bad experiences that you would have normally had. You can find someone attractive, but after just a short video you could realize that you just don’t want to spend an evening with this person. You don’t get this experience with just photo.”
I notice each video is accompanied by a unique question, talk about this.
“I wrote them with a friend who has a background with advertising and branding. There are a wide variety of questions and we are currently testing the water to see which themes become most popular. Giving someone something to talk about is really important. If you point a camera at someone and say, “Tell me about yourself?” It gets really awkward, but asking them questions such as: ‘What’s your favorite movie and why?’ makes it so much easier for someone.
“The other thing about answering these questions, and having video – on the backend it makes it easier for us to match people. With photos preferences are very linear. If people rate someone as an 8, and someone else as a 6, nearly everyone will prefer the 8 than the 6, but with video it’s not that clear, people become much more interesting and unique and it gives us a lot more room to match people with exactly what we think their preferences are.
“The questions ask things like, ‘What are your values?’ ‘If there was a dance called the Twizzle what would it look like? ‘Describe your sex life with a title of a movie?’ So depending on how you answer, and what you are looking for, we can match the right people so much easier.”
Has online dating just become the most efficient way for people to date in modern times?
“It’s certainly more efficient. Take myself for example. I am really into people who are professional, career orientated, really busy and hard working because that’s what I am like. It’s fabulous for people who have a lot on their plate, or have just moved to a new place. It’s a much easier solution than the traditional methods of dating.”
I notice that your site also caters for homosexual searches. Is this just part and parcel of life in modern day dating apps?
“Definitely part and parcel of everyday life, especially living in San Francisco where there are all sorts of sexual orientation. You want to cater for everyone. Actually, when I was doing my research, and searching for ideas about what was out there, the dating apps orientating for the gay community were better, more advanced and had more interested features. I learned more from them than the apps catering for straight people.”
What are your metrics for success at Carbon Dating?
“I have a couple of definitions of success. The first thing was to create something that people thought was cool and held value. It was a personal challenge for me. I find poker enjoyable, and I like the mental challenge and the game, but I had this drive to build something, hold it in my hand and say this is mine. I built this. So seeing people use this app, and create videos, and meet up, carries a very personally satisfying feeling.
“Financial success could come in many different ways. Getting purchased, or exiting after a few years is a viable option; so is turning it into a revenue earning business.
“Finally, the amount I have learned is amazing. I am bad at academic learning…so reading things that I think would be useful for me to know without a concrete purpose is really difficult for me. So with this app it’s been nice. It’s like, “Ok, I need some users so I will advertise on Twitter. Wow! This seems very complicated.” So I bury my head in it for 20-30hrs, run bunch of optimizations, read a bunch of literature on it and suddenly, I am no expert, but I know what’s going on and that’s a skill that I didn’t have before I got into this. So the more I can learn about this space; building mobile apps and running a business is incredibly valuable for me.”
Where can people find Carbon Dating?
“It’s meant to be only available in San Francisco and LA, but if you want to check it out then download it from the App Store. It’s only available for iOS at the moment, but you can check it out. Just be warned that it’s only a few weeks old, so our user base is heavily concentrated in California, but we are always trying to grow as we look to the future.”
What does the future hold for Galen Hall?
“I have no idea and that’s the way I like it. My immediate future, for the next year, is working really hard on this app; watch it grow and see if I can make it a ‘thing’ so to speak. If it’s a success then great. If not, I will be wiser as a result of the experience. I never really know what it is I want to do next, but when I pick something I try my hardest to excel. If it’s worth doing then it’s worth doing well, and this is what I am focused on right now.”
